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Reply rdlowe Pilgrim Joined Dec 11, 2015 Messages 236 Reaction score 190 Location Dallas TX Dec 21, 2018 #3 curator said: Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. Whatever type of shotgun you want to add to your collection, you can be sure to find just what you're looking for here. The mark was seldom requested, Chamber dimensions in millimeters shotguns undergoing smokeless proof. Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. Thanks a ton this, helped me identify a friends old revolver. Any ideas as to date range? Bte" tells us the maker: it stands for "Dieudonn Debouxthay Brevete", or "Patent Dieudonn Debouxthay" in English. Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? The famous "hump back" was made in countless configurations and gauges. it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame. How do I price this piece? Baltus - Wilmotte the 20th century. Today, quality 12-gauge field grade guns from all the American makers during this era can be found and purchased for less than $1,000. Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Just re-visiting this thread to see if there is any new insight on the symbol "E" in the triangle on the side of the breech. I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. Bernard Alphonse Entries are listed by initial year of service descending, then grouped by designation (A-to-Z) to better showcase a given country's evolution in the field of infantry arms. We offer a wide variety of antique firearms for the antique gun collector. Volunteer arms co. on October 29, 2020: 16 gauge serial number is 90524xe what would it be worth and how old is it. country requiring that weapons sold within the respective country, and Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. Each gun maker is presented with the maximum of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most . Antique Shotguns (Pre-1899): Belgian Shotguns, Side by Side Shotguns Our inventory of antique shotguns is made up of shotguns manufactured before 1899, including English, French, and Belgian shotguns. No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. The idea behind such a test is to verify the strength of the barrel, breech and firing system of a firearm by deliberately firing an over-pressured cartridge. I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. Christophe Louis Christophe & Montigny Due to the vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted . Bernard Henri Eugne On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size. Still, this company firmly has its roots in the good old U.S.A. John Moses Browning is a legend of firearms history. Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. Closset J.M. Midway USA sells a CO2 kit to unload both flint and percussion guns.Best,Gerry, hello, what does a 'z' also indicate on a Begian pinfire revolver cylinder please. Ithaca Gun Company: One of America's most successful gun makers. Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. firearms books bibliary. is 1.220 kg (43.00 oz). The fifth a crown, with three crossed spikes set over a capital E. Other French towns had their special marks, such as After 1924 fractions of grams were no longer used 1892 - present 1K355.5 17 weapon. These marks have all the characteristic appearance of a rectangle, with a small blob at the top rather like a tied up sack of corn. Thank y'all again! "Cueruy" could be the maker. Dallas, Donald. Today, Belgian firearms designer Francotte builds famed double barreled shotguns and fine rifles. Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. Lewis Lobdell Hepburn ran his own gunshop in Colton, a small village .Click for more info Seller: gbdeer Area Code: 315 $2,600.00 ATTRACTIVE WESLEY RICHARDS 6-GAUGE PERCUSSION SINGLE BARREL SHOTGUN GI#: 102214961 A.H. Fox guns came in 12-gauge, 16-gauge, and 20-gauge. Arnold Mathias Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Brandon, but I've been out of the country w/o internet access. The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. By 1931, Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Belgium (FN) launched an even smaller .25 ACP pistol developed by the company's chief designer, Dieudonn Saive. Sorry I can't be more helpful. I will try to upload a pic if it'll let me. The wood does not look ancient so I am guessing in the 1970s or so. Sixteen-gauge guns generally fall somewhere in between. The Belgian-made Auto-5 gets more accolades, but the Miroku A-5 is the better gun. Can anybody shed some light here? Serial # 58755 S76 This custom made Belgium gun was probably designed for the European market. We present shotguns with a wide variety of features, technical characteristics, and prices from the worlds best companies, such as Chiappo, Italy; Tar Ideal Concept LTD, Israel and the leader of Chinese gun-industry - China North Industries Corp. (NORINCO). )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. The lack of chamber length probably means it was made before 1892.Is there a name on it? Britte Frres The family was in the barrel making business from the 1880's until mid the 1960's. http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm This is Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont and his son Oscar, 1924. Misc. Rich engraved. Barrels are not rifled- does this mean it must be a shotgun? Bauduin Charles A "Greener" double? A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. A fine antique 18th Century Double Barreled English Percussion Sporting Gun by the famous maker Henry Nock London, caliber 14 mm . BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . A voluminous schedule of rules and scales of charge for the proof of various kinds of small arms is in existence, and the proof is the same at London and at Birmingham; though different proof marks are employed. Ever seen that? It was mandatory post-1924. To my knowledge, there isn't a book out that covers European proof marks: If someone knows about such a book, please add a comment with that information. Behr Jean jacques So the barrel strength would be just a bit less than "modern" barrels; but not the corrosion resistance of Winchester Nickel Steel or AISI 4140. Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. (Six volumes by alphabetical order), Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1. The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. Most double shotguns represented here. Hand Guns 3 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Provisional black powder proof for breech loading guns, since 1924 reserved for smooth bore barrels. JavaScript is disabled. The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. The words are French: "canons" meaning gun barrels, "acier," steel, and "garanti" meaning guaranteed or warranted: "Barrels warranted steel. Home | Login | Register. SCH or EC is abbreviations of the powder: SCH meaning Schultze. Do you have any knowlege of pinfire double barrels? Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. In addition to There's no indication of gauge. Bouquin Ad Comblain H. J. Joseph Farrell on October 27, 2020: In contrast to Walther, Mauser did not start over with serial numbers at the . The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. Good examples of the information that can be derived from adequate images. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. #1 A buddy at work inherited a very nice customized Mauser from his dad. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008. New York: A. S. Barnes, 1961. Pistol made in Belgium, as you know. Stevans): cant verify it is Maj. Doan, but on his hip is a pistol, which looks alike a 7 in. Does it reach the touch hole? Smaller gauges progressively cost more, with 20-gauge guns generally bringing at least twice the price of a 12 gauge. They are often found in combination with proof-marks, and still more frequently on unproved arms made in countries where no official proof was existent. Counet-Leboulle J. The Liege proof house was established in 1672 and it is the oldest European proof house still in operation. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. Hi, Jeremy. marks tell the country of origin of the weapon. Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. stream Where did you find the Falla mark? Closset Louis - Remy Hubert American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not You may know how to do this: put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it with a pencil at the muzzle. Side by side shotguns of this era are highly collectable and our inventory changes frequently. Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. CLEMENT, J. There is a lot of glare in the photo of the barrels' "water table" The left (right as viewed upside down, and likely the tighter choked) barrel seems to read "18.4 (bore size in mm) choke 18.2". It has a gold trigger and serial number starts with an x. I'm very curious as to why there is an "FN" above the serial #. Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheux's 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. "Arsenal" or "Inspector Marks". M Mecar (4 P) Pages in category "Firearm manufacturers of Belgium" On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. Four barrel . Some of the links in the first post are inactive and can not be edited. for exports be able towithstand a proscribed load without damage. x\}WT_0qk E%Mp8@S36QG7=TFx,P?wU]4v>3}wc)0~_+. These Based only on the pictures, those barrels do not appear to be Damascus. Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . Bertrand Antoine & Fils Bettonville - Fontaine Judging by the comments that appeared when I Googled "spesco corporation," your guess is on target. Andr M.J. So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). No maker's name anywhere? Lee Kennett did afine survey, "A History of Proof Marks: Gun Proof in Belgium," that waspublished in. Today's biography is a guest post by our friend Robert White - thanks, Robert! It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . 1891 - present 16 Barrel weight in grams of nitro proofed shotguns. Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. The book presented below is the second of the series and is covering the gun makers whose names are in the D to F range of the alphabetical order. 4 0 obj Shotguns became popular after the U.S. Army used them during the First World War while close-range fighting in trenches. Proof Ancion DD & Fils Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. Do you have any information on them? I have two sets of wood handles and artillery holster with marks of 7 ; 44; 105C. LLH (and other Belgian makers) made the tubes used by most of the U.S. double gun makers 1920s-1940s, with Siemens-Martin or Krupp (by license) steel supplied by Cockerill. Smith & Wesson markets gun accessories, handcuffs, safes, apparel, watches, collectibles, knives, tools, air guns, and myriad other products under its brand name, including cologne, handbags, and washing machines. Each new gun is presented in a best oak and leather case complete with canvas outer and a full complement of accessories. Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. Very helpfull once again. OldGuns Newsletter . determination. Courard Bernimolin & Cap Spain depended for long upon the proof of individual armourers, and most Spanish barrels were marked with the stamp of the maker set in a square or oblong block under a crown. These might cursive as well. Bernard Ernest Board Of Debouxthay was a gunmaker in Liege, Belgium, active at least from 1888-1904. How does it open? 1860-1870. Comblain Belgium Belgian Proofmarks Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheuxs 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheuxs invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasnt invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. (copy right L.R. In some cases this cipher is also preceded by the figures 16, and followed by a capital B., also surmounted by a crown. http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home, https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf, Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1, https://docs.google.com/document/d/17yC Xntqw/edit, https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA g=PA52&lpg, http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en _type_id=7, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=471622, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=474548, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA53, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar a%20gb.htm, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3618, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3202. Coquilhat Aim Boden These marks are customarily the cipher of the gunsmiths guild and the mark of the State or city. Pricing Guides & Dictionary of Makers Marks for Antiques & Collectibles. The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. Counet - Genot Belgian Liege gunmakers If there is no Lion over PV, the gun was NOT proved for smokeless powder. Mauser was a late entry in 1888. Ancion Jacques & Cie Tullea three spiked crown or mitre above a capital E (as shown below). Counet Philippe to share our findings by this means of communication. Braekers Charles & Cie Hello, I have two ELG 1136 Belgian Percussion Dueling pistols with a 6 inch barrel. Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks, Manufacturers Markus, clearly your gun is from 1943, but look, you have used a 2011 old post. Measuring the bore diameter and chamber Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks. Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their Key Findings. A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. Bayet Frres Chaumont M.J. The same stamp but smaller is found on Flobert guns, selfloading pistols with a excess proof pressure of 50%, on barrels of top break guns for Flobert or revolvers cartridges an excess pressure of 30% and or revolvers which are proofed with 30-50% excess loads. As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. Bazin F.J. Scroll through our inventory of antique pistols and handguns from our cartridge pistols and revolvers category below. Coleye M. N. Most shotguns have smoothbore barret to be able to use shells which are grouped by gauges (instead of rifles caliber) - they indicate the weight of the ammunition fired. Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. Thomas Jefferson. The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you.
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